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sobriqueThe subject came up in the pub last night. Instead of semi-drunken ranting, I figured that it might benefit from a little more clarity.
I've been there, done that. My experiences almost certainly differ from others, and so all of the below is mostly my opinion.
There are 3 major steps to finding a job.
Finding the job
Getting an interview
doing well at the interview.
Step one - Finding the job
Criteria
The first step, is basically trying to find the 'right' job. It's a combination of location, pay, role and prospects. By prospects, I mean 'future' of the job. For temp work, the prospects are usually pretty minimal. It pays the bills, but isn't really a stepping stone to ... well anywhere else.
To find the right job, one must do two things. Be realistic in criteria, and then actually look.
Location: Consider how far you would be prepared to commute. This is almost always a combination of time spent travelling, and transport you have available.
By car, it's easy, you just need to figure out the route. Bus and Train are other alternatives. Usually you can get to any job with a combination of these. But it might require changing several times in order to reach your destination - and each stop adds even more time. (not to mention unreliability).
From Coventry, London, Birmingham, Rugby and Leamington are fairly easy to reach by bus/train. London being the key, since that's one of the prime locations. It simply requires consideration of transport.
Mobility greatly improves if one has a car.
Relocation remains an option. It's easy when just starting out, with no family and rented accomodation. If one has children, a house and a mortgage, it's a lot more difficult.
Some places will offer relocation assistance (typically not for temp work, but will for professional).
Pay - pay is simply how much you can afford to live on. It's also a meaningless number when taken out of context - 45k in london doesn't go very far at all.
At the end of the day though, the reason we work is to have money.
Prospects. Depending on what stage you are in professionally, prospects are complicated.
Training is a good perk of the job - makes one more valuable as a member of staff, and also easier to get another job.
Professional experience is also pretty valuable - provided you want to continue with the profession.
The role is the hardest of all. Consider what you would be prepared or able to do.
If you're role absolutely _has_ to be COBOL games programming, you're not going to have much luck. So stop and think for a moment. What are you looking for. What is it about that thing that you really _need_.
To take the example above, does it have to be COBOL? Games? Programming?
I'd imagine that the primary part of that specification would be programming. If one looks for programming, and hopes to spot something a little more suited, then more things are going to be available.
Finding
Once you have a good criteria, the next step is actually _finding_ the role you're after. In some cases you may get lucky. In most, you'll actually have to look.
Jobs may be found through agencies, through people you know, or by getting in touch directly with companies.
Agencies are the prime driving force behind the job market. If you go to a job website, they'll almost all be agency postings.
Job sites like Monster and Computer World Jobs have pretty good search engines for jobs. (If you have other suggestions, please let me know and I'll add them - these two I've had direct experience of).
They'll have quite a few jobs cyling through (depending on your critiera again) but remember that they are agency driven. A job agency makes a rather large commission for placements. This means that they're known to do rude things like CV spamming, or just lying to you about the job spec. They're also being persuasive salesmen. That's not to say they don't have their uses, but don't go too far feeling in debt to them - they're making a notable amount of commission. (IIRC it's around the 10-20% of initial salary mark).
Job specs posted on such site really are an 'ideal situation' specification. If they don't ask, they don't get, and if they get just a few candidates who exactly fit their spec, then selection becomes much easier.
That's not to say that because you don't have 3 years experience you can't (or shoudn't apply). If you think you could do that job with not much take up time (I've yet to see a professional permanant role where they're expecting you to be straight in on day one) then apply. It won't hurt. At the worst, the agency will make a note of your 'profile' and keep it to hand for the future. After all, there's commission to be made, and advertising on job sites costs.
Knowing the right people is an alternative avenue. What it requires is actively networking. Consider looking for local groups that 'do' the subject. E.g. a computer programmers group. You'll probably find that if someone is looking, they'll ask around first - after all, agencies and job sites are expensive.
This method can be slower, but if you know personally the person hiring, then you've shortcut the whole interview/CV process.
The third major alternative is getting in touch directly with companies. Phone up their human resources dept and just ask if they have anything appropriate. Many will often say 'maybe, send us your CV and we'll keep in on file'. Be prepared for a lot of rejection and no answers this way, but if you're prepared to persever, then it does pay off.
(again, because the company doesn't really want to have to fork out for advertising/agencies)
The pay off from this stage is entirely related to how pro-active you are. A job is only rarely going to fall into your lap - and when it does, it typically comes from networking.
Once you've found the job, the next step is getting to interview
Step Two - Getting that interview
Once you've found your ideal post, then it's time to convince them to talk to you. The key to this, is the CV. There's lots of advice on what you should or shouldn't put in a CV. The thing is, that if one is sorting through a few hundred applicants for a job, then CVs get vetoed for the most arbitrary reasons.
So the trick is, keep it to two pages. Keep it concise. Keep irrelevant detail to a minimum.
The thing that they are looking for in a CV is not what skills you have - that's easy enough to do.
What they're looking for is what you'd bring to their business/company.
This is almost never 'have worked with $product'. It's usually 'have had several years experience in a service provider role' or 'specced, designed and implemented $project'.
Certain skill are considered to be a major benefit, because you'll need them, and so if you don't have them, they'll have to spend time training you. The major focus though is on presenting yourself as a person that they can't afford to pass up.
I can't really help there. There's quite a few 'professional' CV writers out there, but there's also quite a few examples available.
So go get your CV. Look through it. Does it look more like a checklist of skills, or is it an advert for how great you are?
Sometimes a recruitment agent will ring you up to see if they think you're suited to the role. It pays to be polite. It also pays to remember that they're looking for their commission. I would suggest that it's worth being positive and enthusiastic, because if you are, they're more likely to put you forward.
It is sometimes possible to get to interview without a CV. But it tends to take a healthy dose of luck.
Step 3. Interviewing
I seem to recall a study of interviews. They took a set of recorded interviews, played them back to 50 people, and got them to make hire or not decisions.
They took the same interviews, and a similar sized sample, and showed the first 12 seconds of the interview. The results were spookily similar.
It's often said that it's easier to find a job when you're in one. This is true. There's two reasons for that - you're already employed, so are unlikely to be a complete muppet, and because there's less pressure, so you can walk in feeling calm and confident. No one comes across well if they're nervous.
Technique is very much a matter of personal style. Typically in interview, there will be two or three interviewers. One will be looking at 'technical' aspects. One will be looking for 'soft' skills (ability to co-operate, work alone, etc.). And one will be a future manager/team leader. (sometimes the manager also looks for the soft skills, and sometimes they get someone from HR down to do that.)
This is your golden opportunity to shine. You've got an hour or so to put yourself across as a valuable addition to their organisation.
Critical to this, is how you walk in the door. Dress smart. Unconventional is OK, but you've _got_ to look competent. This means (for blokes) a shirt, tie and black trousers.
At my last interview I wore a black shirt, and a purple tie. It paid off.
It's also absolutely _vital_ that you arrive on time. They'll typically still interview you, but being late, no matter what excuse you have will have already biased them against you. Leave double the amount of time the journey would normally take. Add on another 10 minutes.
Be aiming to walk into reception 10 minutes early. This will typically give you time to calm down, compose yourself and mentally prepare, without looking too desparate.
Say hello, shake hands, speak clearly.
Introduce yourself, and if they make small talk, then chat with them. They're also feeling a little uneasy, and there's remarkably few people that haven't sat where you are.
Then comes the easy bit. The interview format I've encountered (Systems admin/operations roles) has usually been split between technical questions and motivational questions. Then ends with a more general discussion where you talk about interests (yours and theirs) and you get to ask them stuff.
Technical questions
The technical questions section is to see if you know what you're about. They're not looking for if you know every single C system call, and what arguments each expects. If they ask that kind of question, "I don't know offhand" _is_ an acceptable answer. Provided it's followed with "But I'd look here, here and here".
There's a certain baseline of technical knowledge that will be expected. But no one ever remembers what all the flags to 'ls' are, or what's the integer size on an IRIX MIPSpro processor. (well, ok, some do, but it's not really relevant).
What they're looking for here, is some assurance that you can do what they're wanting after a minimal amount of getting up to speed.
Motivational questions
They'll almost certainly ask you why you're moving on. They'll also ask you questions designed to figure out what your teamwork skills are like, and how well motivated you are.
Answer the questions honestly and fairly. Don't give in to the temptation to slag off your previous employer - when you do, they'll think if you'll be saying the same things about them in the future.
Think about something that 'looks good' that you've done. Designed and implemented a website or database for a hobby. Run a web/mailserver on your ADSL line. If you've got 'project' experience in a job, then that's ideal (provided the project wasn't a complete cluster fuck).
Now they know that technically you can do the job, they're looking for you to tell them why you'd be better than everyone else.
The wind down
They'll often ask a few questions about interests and hobbies. They may even have gone as far as looking them up (eg. at my last interview, they'd gone and looked up airsoft to see what it was). Tell them about your hobbies. Try and draw them into a conversation. It also pays to bring out the better parts - eg. airsofting is about teamwork.
They'll probably ask if you have any questions. You may not - often they'll have covered most things. But now is a good time to get in any little details you're interested in.
Training prospects, whether they have a canteen, when you can expect to hear back from them (either way), how many days holiday a year you get, whether there's overtime or weekend work etc.
It always pays to ask one or two questions, but try and avoid obvious throwaway ones.
For this I used (at my last interview) 'what training might I expect if I worked for you' and 'do you have a staff canteen'. The former covers ... well if they're going to allow you to develop professionally. The latter, how they treat their staff from a social point of view.
There may be a finish up after.
That's about the lot. You can hope to hear back from them and see what they say.
It's rarely going to work first time. Just relax, be open and honest, and hopefully they'll see that. If you do get turned down, that really doesn't mean any more than they think that there's a candidate that's better suited to the post and role than you.
There will be other opportunities, and if they don't think you'd have fit in, then they may well be right. At the end of the day, worst case is that a little time taken, and it was good practice of your technique.
Remember that you can typically ask for travel expenses to be covered when going for interview.
I've been there, done that. My experiences almost certainly differ from others, and so all of the below is mostly my opinion.
There are 3 major steps to finding a job.
Finding the job
Getting an interview
doing well at the interview.
Step one - Finding the job
Criteria
The first step, is basically trying to find the 'right' job. It's a combination of location, pay, role and prospects. By prospects, I mean 'future' of the job. For temp work, the prospects are usually pretty minimal. It pays the bills, but isn't really a stepping stone to ... well anywhere else.
To find the right job, one must do two things. Be realistic in criteria, and then actually look.
Location: Consider how far you would be prepared to commute. This is almost always a combination of time spent travelling, and transport you have available.
By car, it's easy, you just need to figure out the route. Bus and Train are other alternatives. Usually you can get to any job with a combination of these. But it might require changing several times in order to reach your destination - and each stop adds even more time. (not to mention unreliability).
From Coventry, London, Birmingham, Rugby and Leamington are fairly easy to reach by bus/train. London being the key, since that's one of the prime locations. It simply requires consideration of transport.
Mobility greatly improves if one has a car.
Relocation remains an option. It's easy when just starting out, with no family and rented accomodation. If one has children, a house and a mortgage, it's a lot more difficult.
Some places will offer relocation assistance (typically not for temp work, but will for professional).
Pay - pay is simply how much you can afford to live on. It's also a meaningless number when taken out of context - 45k in london doesn't go very far at all.
At the end of the day though, the reason we work is to have money.
Prospects. Depending on what stage you are in professionally, prospects are complicated.
Training is a good perk of the job - makes one more valuable as a member of staff, and also easier to get another job.
Professional experience is also pretty valuable - provided you want to continue with the profession.
The role is the hardest of all. Consider what you would be prepared or able to do.
If you're role absolutely _has_ to be COBOL games programming, you're not going to have much luck. So stop and think for a moment. What are you looking for. What is it about that thing that you really _need_.
To take the example above, does it have to be COBOL? Games? Programming?
I'd imagine that the primary part of that specification would be programming. If one looks for programming, and hopes to spot something a little more suited, then more things are going to be available.
Finding
Once you have a good criteria, the next step is actually _finding_ the role you're after. In some cases you may get lucky. In most, you'll actually have to look.
Jobs may be found through agencies, through people you know, or by getting in touch directly with companies.
Agencies are the prime driving force behind the job market. If you go to a job website, they'll almost all be agency postings.
Job sites like Monster and Computer World Jobs have pretty good search engines for jobs. (If you have other suggestions, please let me know and I'll add them - these two I've had direct experience of).
They'll have quite a few jobs cyling through (depending on your critiera again) but remember that they are agency driven. A job agency makes a rather large commission for placements. This means that they're known to do rude things like CV spamming, or just lying to you about the job spec. They're also being persuasive salesmen. That's not to say they don't have their uses, but don't go too far feeling in debt to them - they're making a notable amount of commission. (IIRC it's around the 10-20% of initial salary mark).
Job specs posted on such site really are an 'ideal situation' specification. If they don't ask, they don't get, and if they get just a few candidates who exactly fit their spec, then selection becomes much easier.
That's not to say that because you don't have 3 years experience you can't (or shoudn't apply). If you think you could do that job with not much take up time (I've yet to see a professional permanant role where they're expecting you to be straight in on day one) then apply. It won't hurt. At the worst, the agency will make a note of your 'profile' and keep it to hand for the future. After all, there's commission to be made, and advertising on job sites costs.
Knowing the right people is an alternative avenue. What it requires is actively networking. Consider looking for local groups that 'do' the subject. E.g. a computer programmers group. You'll probably find that if someone is looking, they'll ask around first - after all, agencies and job sites are expensive.
This method can be slower, but if you know personally the person hiring, then you've shortcut the whole interview/CV process.
The third major alternative is getting in touch directly with companies. Phone up their human resources dept and just ask if they have anything appropriate. Many will often say 'maybe, send us your CV and we'll keep in on file'. Be prepared for a lot of rejection and no answers this way, but if you're prepared to persever, then it does pay off.
(again, because the company doesn't really want to have to fork out for advertising/agencies)
The pay off from this stage is entirely related to how pro-active you are. A job is only rarely going to fall into your lap - and when it does, it typically comes from networking.
Once you've found the job, the next step is getting to interview
Step Two - Getting that interview
Once you've found your ideal post, then it's time to convince them to talk to you. The key to this, is the CV. There's lots of advice on what you should or shouldn't put in a CV. The thing is, that if one is sorting through a few hundred applicants for a job, then CVs get vetoed for the most arbitrary reasons.
So the trick is, keep it to two pages. Keep it concise. Keep irrelevant detail to a minimum.
The thing that they are looking for in a CV is not what skills you have - that's easy enough to do.
What they're looking for is what you'd bring to their business/company.
This is almost never 'have worked with $product'. It's usually 'have had several years experience in a service provider role' or 'specced, designed and implemented $project'.
Certain skill are considered to be a major benefit, because you'll need them, and so if you don't have them, they'll have to spend time training you. The major focus though is on presenting yourself as a person that they can't afford to pass up.
I can't really help there. There's quite a few 'professional' CV writers out there, but there's also quite a few examples available.
So go get your CV. Look through it. Does it look more like a checklist of skills, or is it an advert for how great you are?
Sometimes a recruitment agent will ring you up to see if they think you're suited to the role. It pays to be polite. It also pays to remember that they're looking for their commission. I would suggest that it's worth being positive and enthusiastic, because if you are, they're more likely to put you forward.
It is sometimes possible to get to interview without a CV. But it tends to take a healthy dose of luck.
Step 3. Interviewing
I seem to recall a study of interviews. They took a set of recorded interviews, played them back to 50 people, and got them to make hire or not decisions.
They took the same interviews, and a similar sized sample, and showed the first 12 seconds of the interview. The results were spookily similar.
It's often said that it's easier to find a job when you're in one. This is true. There's two reasons for that - you're already employed, so are unlikely to be a complete muppet, and because there's less pressure, so you can walk in feeling calm and confident. No one comes across well if they're nervous.
Technique is very much a matter of personal style. Typically in interview, there will be two or three interviewers. One will be looking at 'technical' aspects. One will be looking for 'soft' skills (ability to co-operate, work alone, etc.). And one will be a future manager/team leader. (sometimes the manager also looks for the soft skills, and sometimes they get someone from HR down to do that.)
This is your golden opportunity to shine. You've got an hour or so to put yourself across as a valuable addition to their organisation.
Critical to this, is how you walk in the door. Dress smart. Unconventional is OK, but you've _got_ to look competent. This means (for blokes) a shirt, tie and black trousers.
At my last interview I wore a black shirt, and a purple tie. It paid off.
It's also absolutely _vital_ that you arrive on time. They'll typically still interview you, but being late, no matter what excuse you have will have already biased them against you. Leave double the amount of time the journey would normally take. Add on another 10 minutes.
Be aiming to walk into reception 10 minutes early. This will typically give you time to calm down, compose yourself and mentally prepare, without looking too desparate.
Say hello, shake hands, speak clearly.
Introduce yourself, and if they make small talk, then chat with them. They're also feeling a little uneasy, and there's remarkably few people that haven't sat where you are.
Then comes the easy bit. The interview format I've encountered (Systems admin/operations roles) has usually been split between technical questions and motivational questions. Then ends with a more general discussion where you talk about interests (yours and theirs) and you get to ask them stuff.
Technical questions
The technical questions section is to see if you know what you're about. They're not looking for if you know every single C system call, and what arguments each expects. If they ask that kind of question, "I don't know offhand" _is_ an acceptable answer. Provided it's followed with "But I'd look here, here and here".
There's a certain baseline of technical knowledge that will be expected. But no one ever remembers what all the flags to 'ls' are, or what's the integer size on an IRIX MIPSpro processor. (well, ok, some do, but it's not really relevant).
What they're looking for here, is some assurance that you can do what they're wanting after a minimal amount of getting up to speed.
Motivational questions
They'll almost certainly ask you why you're moving on. They'll also ask you questions designed to figure out what your teamwork skills are like, and how well motivated you are.
Answer the questions honestly and fairly. Don't give in to the temptation to slag off your previous employer - when you do, they'll think if you'll be saying the same things about them in the future.
Think about something that 'looks good' that you've done. Designed and implemented a website or database for a hobby. Run a web/mailserver on your ADSL line. If you've got 'project' experience in a job, then that's ideal (provided the project wasn't a complete cluster fuck).
Now they know that technically you can do the job, they're looking for you to tell them why you'd be better than everyone else.
The wind down
They'll often ask a few questions about interests and hobbies. They may even have gone as far as looking them up (eg. at my last interview, they'd gone and looked up airsoft to see what it was). Tell them about your hobbies. Try and draw them into a conversation. It also pays to bring out the better parts - eg. airsofting is about teamwork.
They'll probably ask if you have any questions. You may not - often they'll have covered most things. But now is a good time to get in any little details you're interested in.
Training prospects, whether they have a canteen, when you can expect to hear back from them (either way), how many days holiday a year you get, whether there's overtime or weekend work etc.
It always pays to ask one or two questions, but try and avoid obvious throwaway ones.
For this I used (at my last interview) 'what training might I expect if I worked for you' and 'do you have a staff canteen'. The former covers ... well if they're going to allow you to develop professionally. The latter, how they treat their staff from a social point of view.
There may be a finish up after.
That's about the lot. You can hope to hear back from them and see what they say.
It's rarely going to work first time. Just relax, be open and honest, and hopefully they'll see that. If you do get turned down, that really doesn't mean any more than they think that there's a candidate that's better suited to the post and role than you.
There will be other opportunities, and if they don't think you'd have fit in, then they may well be right. At the end of the day, worst case is that a little time taken, and it was good practice of your technique.
Remember that you can typically ask for travel expenses to be covered when going for interview.
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no subject
Date: 2004-03-13 08:13 am (UTC)Never send a CV out without a carefully written covering letter.
Spelling/grammar are vital in both of the above and covering letters.
Style of dress depends upon the industry - eg. in many areas unconventional dress is *not* OK.
Grr - I hate job hunting.
no subject
Date: 2004-03-15 12:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-03-15 11:34 am (UTC)How do you get to this state? You may be thinking: My life is not what I would like/want it to be but if I had a job it would make it much better/easier. You’re future employer maybe thinking exactly the same thing and hoping that you will resolve/improve their life/work. Look at it from their point of view, if you attend an interview, head full of technical facts but life full of chaos then the lady from Personnel/HR is going to spot this and may give you a black mark.
I think the use of the word ‘right’ in the first sentence applies more to you than the nature of the job you are applying for. This requires a trip into yourself to confront your fears, your aspirations and your dreams. In an uncertain world a path to success is to create certainty within you.
How do you do this? There are competing beliefs and ideas of “ You “ in your head. Some are positive and some are negative. Our aim is to accentuate the positive and reduce the negative. How do I do this? Faith and prayer will get you there but the timespan is unknown. If you want to look inside your head there is a man who may be able to help. Antony Robbins is a motivational speaker and his books, ‘Awaken the Giant within’ and ‘Personal Power(?)’ are worth a flick through in your local bookshop. He explains in his clear, simple detail the power of beliefs, how to play up good beliefs and shut down bad beliefs.
Visualisation and a good nights sleep, this gives your self-confidence to the interviewer that you are right.
Location: This is what it takes to do a regular commute from Coventry to London by train. Annual season ticket costs around £5500. You get up at 5.45am and get to the station for the 6.30am train that arrives at around 8am. You then spend ½ hr to 1 hr commuting across London for a 9am start. You leave the office around 5ish and just make through the rush hour for the 5.45 train; you get back to Coventry for 7.15 and get home for 7.30-8pm. Repeat this over a week and you’ll spend all your weekend recovering for the next week of work.
Driving to London is no fun either. Rush hour traffic on the M1 and M25. Joy. Parking in London is ridiculous; there are no spaces, multi stories charge £30-40 per day parking and there’s the congestion charge for central London. Or you could live in London. Living expenses are four times higher than in Coventry.
Another job site is reed.co.uk
A strong belief in the working world is that you have to be customer focused, the customer comes first, the customer needs to be understood and we will take this personally. You may take this belief and apply to Recruitment consultants but you are not the customer you are the product. Your job is to sit and smile when required it’s impersonal and some people can easily offended by it.
no subject
Date: 2004-03-15 11:35 am (UTC)The HR person is likely to be a woman and she may not say much, all the time though she is studying you, analysing what sort of person you are. A study was published in the New England journal of medicine to show that women’s brains are structured differently to men. This difference was pronounced in the area of the brain governing social interaction , intuition and the ability to ‘read’ a person or situation. In this respect I urge you to never lie/’fudge the truth’ to a woman. There are three types who believe they can successfully lie to a woman, drunks, the insane and the gifted. If you are not in one of these categories it is likely she will know what you are doing.
The word ‘soft skills’ is an industry catchphrase for people based skills, i.e.
Presentations
Training
Self Motivation
Supervisory Skills
Leadership
Influencing
Negiotating
Team Working
Project Management
Business Analysis
Preparation is half the battle, read up about your subject and intended role but don’t forget that you are also the subject and the focus of attention at this interview. Prepare yourself mentally and physically. Let your natural strength show through. Your strength will add to theirs, this will be your edge and a key advantage.